S[00:00:00] Casted Silhouettes Poem: her eyes luminated my heart afloat from the chaos that lived in me,

[00:00:06] the chaos that lives in me,

[00:00:08] Adrian/Naitiemu: Welcome to Afrika design, a creative tour of Africa. On this episode, we meet Senetisiwe, from Eswatini. 

[00:00:15] She's a poet and a performance artist. She takes us through her journey in her project, Casted Silhouettes, which is a poem and performance about love. As well as that piece, we'll touch on Eswatini culture and get a quick history lesson and find out how the queer community is treated in Eswatini.

[00:00:35] As it turns out, Senetisiwe means almost the same as my name, Naitiemu. Naitiemu means one who satisfies. 

[00:00:43] Senetisiwe: Yes. My name is Se-ne-ti-si-we Ginindza, Ginindza is my surname I don't know the meaning of Ginindza but Senetisiwe is directly translated to, we are fulfilled, and. That is something I think I carry with me. I feel like any room I enter; I do offer some sense of fulfillment and, I do light up most rooms, I'd like to say if I do say so myself. so that's what my name means. 

[00:01:10] Adrian/Naitiemu: It's a really beautiful name. Yeah. So going into your project, two birds meet, Casted silhouettes, poetry, visual, we’d love to know more about it. How did it come about?

[00:01:22] Senetisiwe: Casted Silhouettes is a Poetrian movement film in collaboration with Sunflower Sizo it's really interesting how we met because I didn't know she was from my area. I just happened to see her location on one of her posts on Instagram that it was my area. And I had followed her because she was a great dancer.

[00:01:40] I wanted to learn from who I was thinking was far away. But she had just come back for her break from school. And yeah, just discovering that she's not my area. I was excited to just collaborate or I already knew instantly that we had to work together. And I met up with her and just everything just flowed naturally from then we

exchange poems with each other.

[00:02:01] Even the title 'Casted Silhouettes' came after we hadn't even done the entire project. It wasn't something we thought initially, you know? But it also does have a meaning and yes, so Casted Silhouettes it just talks about the casting of silhouettes. And the casting of silhouettes is casting a dark shadow when light comes in, you

know? And I feel like that's what love requires from people that are in love or just love each other, you know, love becomes the light and sometimes you then start seeing the darkness and people and just things maybe you are not so comfortable seeing in someone else. And love requires you to embrace those parts it just casts lights on old scars and all of our traumas and you know, all those things that give you a bit of discomfort. So casted silhouettes is actually just about seeing those things and still choosing to love in spite of those shadows that we have as human beings, you know?

[00:02:58] So that's where the title came from. still remember how it was so magical, just dancing under a sunset and just, us in ourselves feeling free I was learning a lot from her cause she's a great dancer, but I was also just in the poetry and flowing and

dancing.

[00:03:13] Hosts (A/N): Senetisiwe is an actor in a dancer. She expresses herself through poetry and movement. And these are expressions, which she's had. As a child 

[00:03:22] Senetisiwe: I was a performer. Everyone knew that I love poetry well at least in primary school.

[00:03:27] I was always involved in those clubs. But as you grow up, you know, you're taught that you cannot, you cannot make ends meet from, artistic expression. So, you know, you ventured into things differently. So those games kind of died in me as I even moved to Tertiary school. But unfortunately, I actually entered a depressive episode.

[00:03:45] I got very depressed and it was just a lot of underlying issues. And I think one of them, including not following my dreams. So, I'm taking my break from Tertiary. It really was a dive into, okay, what will pull me out of this? What am I experiencing in this space that I can express to make someone understand what I'm going through or

just whatever else that I want to talk about?

[00:04:08] And, so I started doing the inner work and just expressing everything that I think, or feel or see in poetry, in movement, and in dance. I would say this has been my healing process for like how many years now, for a couple of years. So, arts were the

healing period for me.

[00:04:26] Adrian/Naitiemu: You mentioned tertiary education there. What's your experience been, personally, with tertiary education?

[00:04:31] Senetisiwe: I had such a hard time. I won't lie. I was actually burned out when I entered tertiary in 2016. I had worked so hard and just, you know, trying to enter the requirements of this course that I wanted to study. Wanting to fit that requirement to just burnt me out. So, when I then now entered and I was there, now it's time to do it.

[00:04:51] It's just, I was, I was dragging myself. I, I couldn't, I couldn't, I had the capabilities I had at all. You know, but it was really just actually a dark time for me because you realize that your mind, is fighting against your body and everything is fighting. When you're at war with your body and yourself and your mental, it's difficult

to, produce any kind of work that you're supposed to do.

[00:05:16] So it was really difficult to meet my academic responsibilities. So, I did go through intense therapy until I had to actually just take a break. 

[00:05:25] Adrian/Naitiemu: What was the course by the way that you were intended on studying? 

[00:05:28] Senetisiwe: I was studying business science at Rhodes University. I think it was a great opportunity. Everyone was happy at home coming from you know, a home that from yeah rural area and, you know, just a child's going to do business and, you know, just we have a small business at home.

[00:05:42] Actually, we have a shop and you know the bigger pictures that I'm able to expand that for my family. And, you know, this is not a pressure, a lot of pressure. So, it was really knowing that I'd disappointed them was also another guilt I was carrying

just thinking like, wow, I'm really unable to do this right now.

[00:06:00] Not because I'm incapable, but because of everything I'm going through that they might not even understand, I had to accept looking like a failure to them at home. But also, just being true to listening to myself, listening to my body, listening to my mind, and trying to express that and feed it, what it really wanted.

[00:06:17] It needed me to come back home and, begin the process that I did begin.

[00:06:21] Hosts (A/N): Senetisiwe collaborated with sunflower Sizo to create casted silhouettes. 

[00:06:25] Senetisiwe: We wrote poems to each other. And those poems were actually about our experience of each other during just the short time we met. We had a lot of chemistry and a lot of the same ideas of how we wanted to portray this beautiful baby. We call it our baby, actually this baby that we wanted to make. That poem just wasn't capturing my experience of, how I felt in that moment, like when we were just spending time together, but also it wanted me to stand for, we grew up traditionally like she's from a Christian home base. And so am I.

[00:07:00] So us flying and just being individuals, we discovered we're queer. We wanted to portray that and just give a voice to queer bodies and dismantle any kind of stigma, which I think there's a lot of stigma in this area. When it comes to that, and we were just being true to our feelings and what love looks like between two queer

bodies is what we were trying to portray with those poems. She wrote one, I wrote one, and then that created the entire piece. 

[00:07:31] Adrian/Naitiemu: And going on to what you had to do to put this piece together, the location, the colors used, the time when you did that, what did you have to think about?

[00:07:41] Senetisiwe: We had to think about what it is to be free. We had to think about what it is to be under a beautiful sunset and not think about anything else, but something that feels soft and warm to you, something that feels like not having to suppress any part of yourself, not having to pretend, and not having to just being free in movement and in emotion and words.

[00:08:07] That's all we were trying to think about, but also being free that this love that we're trying to express isn't even caging you or confining you. It's also making you free, more free to think what the possibilities are outside of this small space and this

love that I found here. Now also thinking about what the world could even offer, how much more the world could offer. 

[00:08:30] Adrian/Naitiemu: There's some other symbolism in there that's really interesting, isn't it? Yeah. First, we have the two birds meeting, which you've expounded on, but you can expound further.

[00:08:39] Senetisiwe: Okay. Coming together. We didn't really like know each other. But we did come together here and then we also flew. The song fly on talks about the flying of different love birds. They come together. Sometimes they fly, sometimes they go, sometimes they meet, and that was also symbolism for us because we did meet but we also had to, like, after a while, she was coming for her summer holiday she had to fly back and though I stayed, I'm also flying on to, you know, doing different things and different opportunities are taking me to the other end of the world. That happens

sometimes with love. Sometimes you meet people at a certain point and you think

maybe you can grow something, but we have to be able to fly onwards. 

[00:09:21] Adrian/Naitiemu: Lovely. And this other symbolism of black and white, "in a world, rigidly black and white 

[00:09:27] Casted Silhouettes Poem: from what is wrong and what is right. But you, you bring out the colors and pleasures of the in-betweens really no parts of you should hide".

[00:09:40] Senetisiwe: Wow. I actually do use that a lot, even with other poems, I used the reference of black and whites a lot. And I think for me, I don't get why the world has to be about what is wrong and what is right. To most people, what is wrong is seen as black and what is right is seen as white. Right. And this is also sometimes a racial thing, right. We have been colonized to think like Western cultures or, you know, what is right. And we've had to rid of all of our culture and tradition review. For me emancipating ourselves from that kind of thinking is so important.

[00:10:16] And just to see so many things as a spectrum, as sexuality as a spectrum with more colors than just black and white to see things not to think, okay this is wrong, this is right, to just think of the possibilities in between, you know? So that for me is something I've carried with me for a long time and it's hard to express it even

to my family, so I just put it in my work because a lot of us had to emancipate

ourselves from that thinking.

[00:10:40] Adrian/Naitiemu: Yeah, your work talks about respect for water as well. And it's not the first time that you've mentioned respect for water in a piece of poetry. what is the significance of water? 

[00:10:51] Senetisiwe: I'm actually a Cancerian according to astrology and this RDX science. So I'm a water sign. And I'm always drinking water. I love water. I think I should have been a fish actually because I would really live in water. I just don't have gills. But water for me, especially coming from this part of Eswatini I think actually water is just generally a necessity and I've always lived in a place where there's an abundance of water. I love how I feel in water, water does a lot of things, it helps us cook. It feeds us, it nourishes our bodies, and also the nature of the land. And it's, I know I'm not too well versed with this, but I know, even ancestral rituals, the use of water to actually help you connect to the higher power, your ancestors, so water is used a lot even holy water for Christians, so for me, I think water is a focal point that connects us all and there's usually a lot of boundaries that we are put amongst each other.

[00:11:54] And that could be with race or with literally like physical borders in our country. And I believe in us coming together as a unit, and I think water does that for us, for everyone just connecting us no matter what we believe, how we grew up. What race feels from, all of that.

[00:12:13] Adrian/Naitiemu: Yeah, I love that. And also, just the fluidity of water, right? It mixes it, it moves you 

[00:12:18] Senetisiwe: Yes. we cannot live without water.

[00:12:20] Adrian/Naitiemu: Going back to your poem there's a part where you say the way your skin repairs itself 

[00:12:25] Casted Silhouettes Poem: has me thinking you're immortal. 

[00:12:27] Adrian/Naitiemu: I just love to understand more of that. What is the symbolism?

[00:12:30] Senetisiwe: I do think we're immortal. We will die, but I actually think we do transcend to somewhere where I don't even know where. You know, the whole the heaven and hell thing that's open to interpretation, but I meant that literally because she got burnt, Sizo. She got burnt by I think, fire. Yes, she was around a bonfire. And I think she was just dancing in the zone and, she fell and got burnt by the fire and a few days after that, like her mom, I think she said she put aloe on the burn and, what

we call, I forgot the Swazi name, but it's red soil. And the skin really just replenished itself and she healed quite quickly. I do think we repair ourselves quite quickly when we're quite healthy and know of the things to use and some of them aren't even the medications like antibiotics and stuff. I think natural entities actually make us heal faster because I also have an experience. I had surgery a few years ago and what actually healed me really quickly was something called Nklavelo, which is actually chicken bone marrow.

[00:13:34] And it was applied on my wounds and that's what healed me even better than the antibiotics did. I think we're better with nature than we are with anything that's processed.

[00:13:44] Adrian/Naitiemu: Senetisiwe told us about the importance of the climate and environment to her work.

[00:13:50] Senetisiwe: I actually draw a lot of inspiration from nature and being in nature, just like sometimes not directly, but it's offered me a space to just free my mind. A certain time when I had a bit of a writer's block and I was asked to write a poem for some specific topic and I didn't even know where to start, but I just stepped out of the house and sat, it was even dark so it's not like I was seeing much. I was seeing the

stars, I was smelling the breeze and, when there's water around, I can always smell when there's what's around and I can feel it. So, I was able to gain ideas for that poem and it wasn't even about nature. It was just about something different.

[00:14:28] I do really connect deeply with nature. And it is a source of my inspiration.

[00:14:34] Adrian/Naitiemu: I really enjoyed your Emanti poem during African crossroads, the whole performance. I don't even understand Eswatini, but I felt like I could understand it, you know? Naitiemu on being the one to edit. 

[00:14:46] Senetisiwe: Oh, yeah.

[00:14:47] You did a great job. I loved the editing of the video. I really enjoyed that. 

[00:14:53] Adrian/Naitiemu: I loved how you moved your body with the water. I could almost see the water flowing. 

[00:14:58] Senetisiwe: Yes. 

[00:15:00] Adrian/Naitiemu: So, I just love to understand your take on queerness.

[00:15:16] Hosts (A/N): LGBTIQ rights are limited in Eswatini and just recently there was a ruling by the high court affirming the equality, but denying their rights to be legally recognized by the government. 

[00:15:28] We wanted to find out more about Senetisiwe's experience. 

[00:15:32] Senetisiwe: That's a difficult one actually because not many people are aware that I'm queer and that just goes to show how a lot of us than just silenced or just feel safe, not coming out. And there are communities, the LGBT communities that I'm actually a member of one of them, but they've had to work hard to just try cement their existence in the country because of so much fear that it's dangerous to come out. I think of Christian countries. It's an abomination and I have been in fear and not trying to be openly queer, if I don't feel like it's necessary, that's something I don't even mention.

[00:16:13] That's, I think how a lot of us feel, and I'm just grateful that there are communities that can, exist openly. And I hope a lot of queer people who haven't really come out are even aware of these communities. I know when I fought against it, it was one of my depresses.

[00:16:31] If a community and a whole country removes you and say, you're being as an abomination. You want to cease to exist. You want to remove yourself as well from existing. That's my experience and that's how I feel but there are those communities, which I'm very grateful for and I'm supportive, but I think there's still that fear, not

only within me, cause even family, I think you would be disowned. 

[00:16:54] Adrian/Naitiemu: So, you won't be sending this to your family?

[00:16:57] Senetisiwe: They're in the room right now. I'm not sure if they listening. So, yeah. I'm partially okay with them listening, but not an official conversation that has happened. So, there'll be surprised to come across this and hear, but I know they've seen casted silhouettes and they're just hoping is just a creative direction that I went.

[00:17:16] Adrian/Naitiemu: Yeah. Keep the direction. Good stuff. Yeah. Everyone should be allowed to express love how they feel. 

[00:17:26] We read that there was the first pride celebration in Eswatini and it seemed like it was quite a big thing. And even internationally, because it got so much attention, it seems to have a positive impact on the community because it drew attention to the

country as a whole.

[00:17:44] Can you maybe tell us about it?

[00:17:45] Senetisiwe: Unfortunately, I can't actually say much because I don't know much about it. I'm very embarrassed to say, I don't know much about it, but yeah it did draw a lot of attention because it was the first one and, you know, the king and his rules, it was very shocking to the country because when you decide to do something like that, you are putting yourself in danger. I think a lot of people feeling free and just

getting support from other countries as well is what empowered us to be free-er and even go beyond our fear that because as you know, I don't know if you know, that it's an absolute monarchy, so the king can do whatever he actually wants or says, his word is rule. That fear alone has really caused a lot of silences, not even with sexuality, even with just fighting for justice. It was probably the first of many protests that are still to come for us to just openly fight for justice, for human rights.

[00:18:39] Adrian/Naitiemu: Maybe as we're talking about your country. We'd really like to know more and get kind of take us on a bit of a tour culturally, and maybe you can give us a short history of Eswatini.

[00:18:49] Rather than us, you know, reading what we can read online and Wikipedia, what your take on the history, the bigger picture of how the history, you know, in the past and how it's kind of shaped where the country is right now.

[00:19:03] Senetisiwe: Eswatini is an absolute monarchy. It was first Swazi land before it was renamed Eswatini. And the king decided to rename it Eswatini because we wanted to decolonize the name. But when it comes to our leaders, we cannot vote for our, ministers and the king.

[00:19:23] He is actually appointed because of his bloodline, it's hereditary to gain the chair as a king. And then there's the prime minister who is elected by the king and then

the cabinets as well, which is elected by the king from the MP.

[00:19:41] The MPS are the only thing which are members of parliament. The only thing we can vote for in our regions. Anything that happens is really because of the prime minister and the ministers elected by the king. We don't have a voice. We haven't had a voice in many, many years, and this constitution wasn't even made by us.

[00:19:58] We didn't have a say to that constitution. It hasn't been shaped by the people it's been shaped by people that are elected by the king. And it's just, it's been, it makes it very slow.

[00:20:07] A lot of things that we could be first world country by now but because a lot of the benefits go to one lineage. Our families work. A big chunk of their earnings, go to the taxes, which are benefited by the King and, the entire Royal family.

[00:20:24] It has reached its tipping point, It is when protests have started to begin. And that is as of last year in June, I think that was the first protest for democracy, not the first protest ever. The teachers have been protesting as well for years now just

wanting better pay because I don't know if we can agree that teachers are important.

[00:20:44] They're, they're the ones that shape the future of children. They've been protesting for so many years, but yeah, their voices have been silenced and no change has been made and until bigger protests happened, they started last year June.

[00:20:57] Then that's when the government reacted with more violence. We were shot at a lot of people lost their lives. Some were injured. We were already dealing with COVID. So now losing more life to the violence of, you know, trying to silence you was, was really devastating and horrendous and they continue to happen now.

[00:21:15] It's the beginning of a revolution for us right now. And we hope that the lives that were lost were not in vain that they will be changing the country and we will be free, we will have a voice, and that the economy of the country will actually reach you know, will improve. 

[00:21:29] Adrian/Naitiemu: Thank you. Thank you. We'd really love to know. Maybe you can tell us the people, the culture, the language, how should they be.

[00:21:37] Senetisiwe: Okay, so Singemaswati and we are from Eswatini and we speak Siswati and I would say it's similar to Xhosa and Zulu, which are South African languages. We have beautiful places to go. So, I'd invite the business to come take a trip to Eswatini and yeah, we'd be happyto welcome them. We're very friendly people. We'd be happy to host you. 

[00:22:01] Adrian/Naitiemu: Amazing, definitely coming soon. Let's plan that, yeah. Where do we book the flight to? 

[00:22:08] Senetisiwe: Yeah. 

[00:22:08] Adrian/Naitiemu: Just type Eswatini, and you're searching.

[00:22:11] So, is everything that's called Swazi? Is that all colonial connotations or where did that come from?

[00:22:17] Senetisiwe: That was, yes. That is definitely a colonial connotation. It's Swati now, but even we were trying to get used to it. We're still not, not used to the change. Some people really do refuse to, to change, but that is the colonial connotation to Swati.

[00:22:36] Adrian/Naitiemu: Is it perhaps too early, but is culture kind of reappropriating that term now where young people are kind of maybe using it to mean what they want it to mean.

[00:22:45] Senetisiwe: Hmm, that's a good question. I think they are; I think they are, or it's just you know, we're, we're not used to it. Some people do still find it difficult to change or not really understand why the change was made in the first place. It's the understanding of the change that lacks in some of us.

[00:23:03] Yeah. 

[00:23:03] Adrian/Naitiemu: Thank you, I've learned a lot, yeah. How many tribes are there in Eswatini? 

[00:23:08] Senetisiwe: We don't really have tribes. I think it's the one tribe. The Swati tribe. Yes. And in South Africa, I think they only have the Swati tribe as well because they actually colonize some of our land. So that's how they ended up having some Swatis as well.

[00:23:23] They ended up with, I think 12, if not 11 languages.

[00:23:26] Adrian/Naitiemu: I wonder if there are other African countries where the tribe has their own country.

[00:23:32] Senetisiwe: Not too sure about that. I should look into that. 

[00:23:34] Adrian/Naitiemu: Did you have any questions for us or our listeners?

[00:23:38] Senetisiwe: Yes, I did. I did. I wanted to know, I'm not sure where you guys are from what you both from Kenya? 

[00:23:45] Adrian/Naitiemu: I'm from Kenya. I'm from a town called Nanyuki. I'm Kenyan. Yeah.

[00:23:49] Senetisiwe: And 

[00:23:50] how many 

[00:23:50] Adrian/Naitiemu: I'm adopted... 

[00:23:50] Senetisiwe: tribes are there? 

[00:23:53] Adrian/Naitiemu: there's like 40 something. I don't know, like in the forties? Yeah. In the forties. 

[00:23:58] Senetisiwe: Wow. Wow. Okay. 

[00:24:01] Adrian/Naitiemu: Yeah. 

[00:24:01] Senetisiwe: And where are 

[00:24:02] Adrian/Naitiemu: why I'm shocked when you say you are, there's only one like, wow. 

[00:24:23] Adrian/Naitiemu: So, I'm, I'm from Poland, originally. I was born in Poland. Then I moved to the UK when I was a kid at the age of seven, then grew up, went to school in the UK, and studied in the UK. Spend six months in India, went back to the UK, graduated, did my graduate job there, and then came to Kenya and I've been in Kenya now.

[00:24:44] Well, first time I came to Kenya was in 2014 as a consultant, and then started Nairobi design week in 2015.

[00:24:52] Senetisiwe: Lovely lovely. I think Hmm, that's interesting. I recognize you now because I didn't actually remember if we'd met before, but I do remember when I entered the African crossroads, you had I think a Google chat but what was it on again? 

[00:25:08] Adrian/Naitiemu: We were talking about the London Design Biennale, the lotus of the Nile, which was a musical project. We talked about the ecoexistence game jam. So, my face was there popping up, we were also doing the technical side. So that's why Naitiemu edited that video, David, who is producing this podcast was actually producing the whole event as well.

[00:25:29] So we were the guys behind the scenes. Yeah.

[00:25:50] Well, a theme this year is where we live all starting with the mind and the body and our environments and our surroundings, our neighborhoods and the planet and the metaverse. And one of the things we're doing is getting people to collaborate

between each other. And made like a 15-second collaboration so getting creatives to just make a piece together and then share it during the festival.

[00:26:14] Senetisiwe: Wow. That's amazing. The cross-border, it is, it's something I want to do more. 

[00:26:18] Adrian/Naitiemu: We had another question as well, so, okay. Maybe two questions. First of all, Sizo, is there a meaning for the name Sizo? Maybe you can enlighten us because that's the second Sizo I've heard of. 

[00:26:30] Senetisiwe: Oh, yes, yes, 

[00:26:32] Adrian/Naitiemu: one being your other collaborator

[00:26:35] Senetisiwe: yes, yes, yes, yes. Sizo actually means help. And, and, and to be honest, yes, help.

[00:26:42] And I don't know, really something about names. The both Sizos have been in my experience of them. They've been very, just generous with information and just like anything that will help you in your growth. 

[00:26:56] Adrian/Naitiemu: So now another quick one,

please, because we've talked about this, I'll give you a reason why I'm going to ask you this question because, in Swahili, you refer to people as they, right? No gender pronouns. And is that the same in your language or is it, is that because also I've noticed like Sizo, it can be male/ female.

[00:27:18] Doesn't really matter.

[00:27:19] Senetisiwe: I think people find that they can't give them to the. For example, Spizo can hardly be female, like, it's just like you just know when this name cannot be for a male, at least that's how they think. But names are not gendered here at all. No, at least that's not how I see them. 

[00:27:36] Adrian/Naitiemu: Really interesting.

[00:27:37] Do you have any plans coming up?

[00:27:39] Senetisiwe: Yes, I was just from Mozambique. It was in December for the first time I was actually there doing a lot of performances. A lot of them were improvised collaborations, so I would love to actually return then April and that's still in the works. Would love to return there to perform. Swaziland is very small and there's not many opportunities. Yeah. And when I went to Mozambique, there was, I was opened up to so much more.

[00:28:03] Yeah, I was excited to return. So, I'm finding my returns to Mozambique and hopefully, there'll be more opportunities to maybe even come to Kenya or wherever else in the world. 

[00:28:14] Adrian/Naitiemu: Well, when you need an invite, you've got one already. Just let us know. 

[00:28:17] Senetisiwe: Yes. 

[00:28:17] Adrian/Naitiemu: Where can people find you? 

[00:28:19] Senetisiwe: I'm on socials. Facebook, I'm Senetisiwe and on Instagram as well as Twitter, I've just deactivated my Twitter account for now, but they can still find me on Twitter I just take breaks from Twitter every now and then, for health reasons. 

[00:28:37] Adrian/Naitiemu: This has been awesome.

[00:28:42] Senetisiwe: Thank you so much for having me.

[00:28:44] Hosts (A/N): Coming up next time is Omagano Kankondi, a product designer and innovation enthusiast from Namibia. She introduces us to the projects they do at the UNDP accelerator, lab Namibia, including the methodology of introducing digitization to the informal sector, working with the government, and Namibian indigenous knowledge. If you have any ideas for episodes we should do, people we should host on the show. Please let us know. We're really, really interested in hearing your thoughts. And if you've made it this far, A review would mean so much to us as well on whichever platform you're listening to us on. 

[00:29:23] Or even the recommendation to one of your friends or through a tweet. We hope to get these stories out there to more people.

[00:29:29] I'm Adrian Jankowiak and my co-host is Naitiemu. This episode was edited by David King'ori with music by Ngalah and Mercy Barno. Thank you for tuning in to Afrika Design.

Produced by Nairobi Design Week

Hosts: Naitiemu and Adrian Jankowiak

Editor: David King'ori

Shorts & Artwork: Felix Owaga

Music: Ngalah Oreyo (@ngalah_oreyo) and Mercy Barno (@merc.b_)